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Why aren't there any banner ads?
Authored by: alec kinnear on Sep 10, '04 11:50:10PM
Why aren't there any banner ads?
I don't want the hassle of managing banner rotation, hit counts, click-through counts, monthly reporting, etc. I also don't want to farm this responsibility out to a third-party to manage. Finally, I like the fact that I can visit my own site and find just what I want - information - without wading through the banners. In short, I just find it much easier to use and manage the site when I don't have to deal with advertisers. I also like the look of the site without banners. As long as I can make the economics work reasonably well without ads, MacOSXHints will remain advertising free. Do I expect to get rich off the site? Absolutely not. Do I hope to make a positive income from the site? If I do, I don't think that's a bad thing in exchange for the time I devote to providing solid information on using Mac OS X. Of course, it's up to you (via your choice to subscribe) to tell me whether you find the site valuable or not; there is no "subscriber only" restricted content anywhere on the site.
that sounds like somebody i'd like to support (and i did). what went wrong with you, rob? there must be a better way for you to make money with your talents than defacing the wonderful resource that you put together.

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Why aren't there any banner ads?
Authored by: robg on Sep 11, '04 12:44:11AM

That was then, this is now. I'm sorry you feel the way you do, but I won't change my plans because of it. If you have read any of my responses to the comments, then you'd probably understand what has changed. Alas, it seems you have not, or you chose to ignore what I wrote.

If you're upset that you contributed, please email me privately and I will gladly issue you a refund - for all three years, no less. It was never my intent to deceive anyone into paying, and then running ads.

I could ask for money again, you are right about that. But that's not a long-term solution that would let me change my work setup so that I can (a) spend more time making the site better, (b) balance the time commitments of site, family, and job without having a heart attack, and (c) still afford to feed and clothe the family. Asking for donations with a plea every time funds ran short is NOT a permanent solution to any of those problems. I do not want to seem like PBS (which I do support, BTW!), coming on the air every three months going "Please donate to support this worthy cause." Not only is it annoying to the readers, but I could not possibly make a decision to reduce my paying job on that basis.

After expenses, a "good" month on the donation system netted me $150 -- for anywhere from 100 to 150 hours of work. Clearly something had to change if I was going to try to make a living at this...

Again, sorry you feel the way you do, but this was the best answer for the long term viability of the site -- and that's what I really care about at the end of the day.

-rob.



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come clean...and find support
Authored by: alec kinnear on Sep 11, '04 01:15:56AM

i think the problem we the community had with contributing was that we thought as you had a successful, best-seller mac os x hints book out of the site, that you were sated apart from bandwidth.

therefore the impetus to contribute became less, rather than more. "rob got his book, rob's doing okay".

had you come clean and said, at the end of the day i earned $5000 from the book (or $10,000, or $20,000 or whatever the fee was) and the site is still costing me 20 hours/week of work, and i need more money if i we are to keep going in the expanded form (with popularity there are more posts to review and more posts edit and more comments to keep track of) - had you done this in an open and truthful way - i am sure you could have reaped many times the benefits you hope to gain with these futile and poorly paid banner ads.

it's probably not too late. approach us like a community. tell us what the numbers are and what you need from us.

i am sure you would find the support you need.

and you would not be defacing the clear realisation of the sparkling vision for this site that you first had three years ago.

grafitti from microsoft on macosxhints.com, rob?

come on, you can't be happier about that than i am.



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come clean...and find support
Authored by: kirkmc on Sep 11, '04 10:38:54AM

I like how people think that authoring a single book brings fortune... I'm a Mac book author, with about 8 books so far (as sole or co-author). I'm not rich, by a longshot. Rob didn't get rich from his book either...



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p.s.
Authored by: robg on Sep 11, '04 12:59:14AM

I also noticed that you quoted the following, but apparently it didn't register. This is in the FAQ you quoted above:

"As long as I can make the economics work reasonably well without ads, MacOSXHints will remain advertising free."

Clearly, that situation has changed, hence, we have ads now. Again, sorry to lose a reader, but I want this site to grow and prosper, but I don't want to die of a heart atttack, lose my family, or go broke doing it. It's important to me, but it's not THAT important.

-rob.



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work less on the site...do more consulting
Authored by: alec kinnear on Sep 11, '04 01:33:17AM

rob, you are clearly very talented and personable.

not only that you have an exhaustive knowledge of mac os x.

you can make $100/hour consulting on macs if you are anywhere near a major US centre. if you are out in the sticks (otherwise the best place to be), you can make $50/hour.

get some volunteer editors in to help wade through the hints. it is clearly too much for one person. that makes sense.

but banner ads are not going to make the workload any less or make you rich. or even partway rich.

if you want to make money, make money.

i'd love to see the economics on those banner ads. i'm sure they are shockingly poor.

if you can tell me that those banner ads are buying you a new mercedes and putting your kids through college, your overnight conversion to the pillage and burn school of websites (macfixit or even worse expertsexchange) will make more sense.

but do the banner ads even cover food and gas?

if you are going to sell out, rob, sell out.



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to the slash 'n burn marketeers above: a few words from tim bernars lee
Authored by: alec kinnear on Sep 11, '04 01:40:34AM

"People have sometimes asked me whether I am upset that I have not made a lot of money from the Web. In fact, I made some quite conscious decisions about which way to take my life. These I would not change - though I am making no comment on what I might do in the future. What does distress me, though, is how important a question it seems to be to some. This happens mostly in America, not Europe. What is maddening is the terrible notion that a person's value depends on how important and financially successful they are, and that that is measured in terms of money. That suggests disrespect for the researchers across the globe developing ideas for the next leaps in science and technology. Core in my upbringing was a value system that put monetary gain well in its place, behind things like doing what I really want to do. To use net worth as a criterion by which to judge people is to set our children's sights on cash rather than on things that will actually make them happy."



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to the slash 'n burn marketeers above: a few words from tim bernars lee
Authored by: robg on Sep 11, '04 02:02:22AM

I'm not sure why you think that I'm gaining *anything* from this move!? If measured on a net worth basis, more than likely I will be taking a substantial *hit* to our net worth, not increasing it via the ads.

You do understand that I have reduced my salary by 40% in order to spend *more time* on the site, do you not? I am *not* trying to make "a lot of money" on the web. Ideally, I'd like to be able to replace half of what I'm giving up to work on the site more often -- in other words, I'm hopeful that I'll take only a 50% pay cut to spend more time doing what I love to do, while helping more people with OS X...

To quote from your quote, I agree with it basically 100%. In particular, "Core in my upbringing was a value system that put monetary gain well in its place, behind things like doing what I really want to do. " That's the entire reason I added some advertising -- I needed a way to spend more time doing what I love to do. But the reality is that houses, kids, and utilities aren't free, so there have to be some funds to pay the bills, too.

So now I've made a decision to reduce my net worth, to spend more time doing what I love to do, and spend less time chasing the "net worth monster," and yet you accuse me of selling out. Clearly we disagree on why the ads are here. I wish you luck in your search for a site that meets all your needs. I'm truly sorry to see you go, but we clearly have a difference in philosophy.

And for the record, I'm quite *proud* of the Microsoft ads here. I use Excel, PowerPoint, and Word on a daily basis, and I own several Microsoft Mice. They make some wonderful products. They also do some amazingly callous and thoughtless things. But then again, so does another company whose products I use and love -- Apple.

-rob.



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to the slash 'n burn marketeers above: a few words from tim bernars lee
Authored by: robg on Sep 11, '04 02:07:53AM

Typo -- "50%" should be "20%".

-rob.



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on Microsoft
Authored by: alec kinnear on Sep 11, '04 02:22:07AM

Microsoft lie through their teeth in both business meetings and in court. They have destroyed and pillaged more small companies built on the sweat and talent of good people, than they have bought lock, stock and barrel before discontinuing the competing product.

If you choose to buy and use their products, you choose the way of the monopolist, the corporatization of the public space, wholescale intrusion on personal privacy and the absolute rule of plutocracy where no one who is wealthy is held accountable for any of their actions.

But that is a separate topic which would require extensive referencing and footnoting.

I repeat Rob. Before you ran the banner ads, we were a community. You only had to ask us for support and you would have had it. With banner ads, we are not a community anymore. We are just your guests and victims of your banners and whatever other tripe you choose to inflict on us over the course of time.

And most of us won't support you, as you already have the banners. I paid to keep Macosxhints.com a commercial free zone and I feel betrayed.

I am glad to hear of the courage of your convictions. The regrets become less as one gradually realises the community never really existed and the banners never flew before more out of disorganisation than any particular conviction that the commons should be free.



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on Microsoft
Authored by: robg on Sep 11, '04 02:38:02AM
Sigh. I apologize to everyone reading this thread; I let my emotions and my beliefs in the site and its continuing purpose get to me in my responses -- I should not have replied to the first post, but I felt that my beliefs were being attacked, and that I had to defend. I should have just stayed quiet.

Everyone just needs to know that this site is extremely important to me, for it is what I love to do! I will do everything that I can to keep it community-oriented, keep it focused on useful information, make it available for free to anyone who wants to see and search the hints, and keep it online for as long as I can do so. Yes, we have banner ads now, but that doesn't change my mission, vision, or feelings for the site one bit ... and it gives me more time to work on it for all of you.

That's my commitment to the community, and that's all I have to say on the matter.

-rob.

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on Microsoft
Authored by: steeviant on Sep 12, '04 10:21:33PM

Rob, it sickens me to see people criticizing you for doing what seems to be the best thing for this site.

I for one, truly appreciate this site and don't mind donating a bit of bandwidth and screen real-estate in return for the incredibly valuable service of almagamating and editing the hints into this lovely site.

If I wasn't unemployed, I'd be happy to donate money to the site even though there are ads here. Some people like the idiot grandparent poster just don't know how good they have it.

Thanks for the great work so far, and I hope that your ads generate enough revenue for you to keep the site as useful and clutter-free as it is now.

You, and all the hint submitters do fantastic work Rob, and I hope that one day you can make a living doing what you love. :)



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