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Interesting...
Authored by: robg on Dec 17, '02 10:11:15AM

I just sent a rather detailed note to a number of contacts at Proteron asking for more information. As soon as (if?) I hear anything, I will definitely report the results.

Thanks for the heads-up!

-rob.



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Interesting...
Authored by: boysimple on Dec 17, '02 03:35:58PM

Rob - I would be very interested to hear the results of your investigation.

Too often people get all agitated for being persecuted for actual crimes, thinking that because it's on their computer they are 'innocent'. The poster even said 'guilty as charged'. So what's her beef? If the email address used is stored in a global area so that it can be accessed by any program, than the issue is with OS X design. However, if Proteron is going into mail/entourage specific files - that is over the line. Depite the lazy ethics of the poster, Proteron shouldn't get down in the mud with them.

However, with even less investigation, they could probably contact her ISP and haver her connection turned off. and I would imagine that would be worse convienience-wise than sending a threatening email. So in sum, I'm very curious.

E



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Response received...
Authored by: robg on Dec 18, '02 12:25:36AM
I received an email response from Sam Caughron, Proteron's President, today, and now firmly believe that Proteron is doing nothing about which I need to be concerned. According to Sam, in both his email and during a relatively long follow-up phone conversation, MaxMenus does not send any personal information on an immediate or scheduled basis when you install the trial version and/or register the program with a valid serial number (it sends the registration information, obviously, but even that is encrypted before being sent).

Proteron has taken some necessary steps to protect themselves from piracy, and Sam shared all of those details with me during our conversation. In the interest of not making it any easier for the pirates to get around those security protections, I will not share the details here. But I know enough about what Proteron has put in place to assure you that any information sent regarding a pirated serial number system is only that information which is available to any program, any time, through Apple's published APIs (and without requiring root access).

Sam's willingness to answer my questions, both in email and on the phone, as well as the level of detail that he provided on MaxMenus anti-piracy measures, are signs that Proteron is trying to do the right thing for its customers while also trying to stay in business by reducing piracy. I respect that approach, as if you're going to upset anyone with your policies, it might as well be the ones trying to steal the product as opposed to those buying it!

I have no qualms about continuing to use MaxMenus or any other Proteron product that meets my needs - I am confident that none of my personal information is being transmitted. I even ran etherpeek (a TCP packet sniffer) for a couple hours tonight just to see what was going out ... lots of stuff, but nothing related to Proteron that I could see. Registered users and trial mode users (30 days of full use, and then after that, only occasional "nag" reminders, so why would anyone even need to enter a pirated serial number to "test" the program?) should feel comfortable installing and using this cool tool; there's no "Dark Side" at work behind the scenes!

-rob.

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Response received...
Authored by: icday on Dec 18, '02 12:17:38PM

Thanks Rob. Much obliged for your follow up, and relieved on the subject of 10.2 security. I dont have sympathy for people using illegally obtained anthing (although I agree with the arguments of RMS for not using the world "pirate"). Shareware vendors find it tough enough to get a return on their work without duplicate serial numbers gumming the pitch.

Thanks again for your investigation



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Response received...
Authored by: boysimple on Dec 18, '02 12:32:17PM

Rob,

Thanks for the investigation, glad to hear that Proteron is on the up and up (and is defending themselves agressively).

E



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Still Unethical
Authored by: MasterUltan on Dec 22, '02 01:42:07AM

I do NOT intend to condone software piracy, but something more insidious is going on here. Let me give you a real world analogy. If you steal something of mine and I KNOW you stole it, do I have the right to break into your home, search your belongings, and take back my property? No, I do not. That is taking the law into one's own hands; that is vigilante-ism. Proteron is NOT justified in stealing user's personal information whether they broke the law or not. This is a matter for the police. I do not accept the idea and am very concerned about the precedent that private interests can be defended by going beyond the law. Is there anything in Proteron's License agreement which alerts the user to the fact that his/her personal information is offered in the case the license agreement is violated? If so, is this a legal form of contract? People interested in preserving the values of freedom which exist on the Internet and in the world should be VERY concerned about this.



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Still Unethical
Authored by: DrRobert on Dec 22, '02 06:58:35PM

Amen Brother Ultan. Vigilantism must not be tolerated. This is a good piece of software to boycott. The thought by the company that the innocent have nothing to fear is perverse. Only legal process can determine guilt.



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Difference of opinion...
Authored by: robg on Dec 22, '02 07:58:10PM

I feel that accessing information stored in publicly available fields is a far cry from breaking in -- a better analogy, in my opinion, is that I know you stole something, so I used the information in the Yellow Pages to locate you.

But everyone must determine their own level of comfort with their own privacy; I've decided that MM is doing nothing that I need be overly concerned about.

-rob.



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Publicly Available?
Authored by: MasterUltan on Dec 23, '02 10:36:11AM

Nothing on my computer is "publicly available". If I go to my bank and withdraw all of my money in cash, then leave that cash on my front door step, you have still committed a crime by taking it. I may have been foolish in leaving it there, but you have no right to it. Any information available to programs through OS X API's is for programmers to facilitate MY use of that information. I have agreed to NO contract which allows that information to be accessed by companies and/or programmers.
In addition, DrRobert makes an excellent point regarding the comment about "innocence". I believe this phrase was used a great deal by Joe McCarthy and is, ironically, quite Un-American.



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Difference of opinion...
Authored by: DrRobert on Dec 23, '02 12:24:36PM

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the accessing of publicly available information; however, the is nothing that assumes that a program's author may use that information. The insidious thing here is that that information is LEAVING my machine without my consent. It should be clear to a purchaser what a program is doing on his machine. The analogy is not using a phone book to look up a number, the analogy is digging through a person's personal papers that he left on his front porch to obtain an unlisted phone number. If he really only wants to stop piracy then he should clearly state that he will harvest this information so that we may choose not to use his software. I should never be denied of the choice to not distribute my personal information. I always pay for shareware and never pirate software, but I never register either. Once I buy a piece of software the seller has no right to know what I do with it.



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Difference of opinion...
Authored by: DrKwan666 on Dec 29, '02 01:28:34AM

Publicly stored? I don't know what you consider "public", but the contents of my computer, whether protected from intrusion or not, are nobody's business. The fact that this software retrieves ANY data from my computer that I did not explicitly authorize is a clear invasion of privacy regardless of the reason it is done.

I don't use this software, but given this revelation I very definitely won't ever use it or any product from this company. I think consumers have every right to expect that any software they install will, at very least, explicitly state what data will be gathered as a result of installation.

No one condones piracy, but unethical behavior is unethical behavior no matter what the reason. The ends do not justify the means.



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Difference of opinion...
Authored by: VicF on Jan 05, '03 12:25:31PM

In my opinion, this would be a legitimate difference of opinion if, when one downloads MaxMenus, they are explicitly told up front that the software includes spyware that sends identifying information to the developer in the event that an inappropriate serial number is entered. Then I as a software user have the option of downloading the software on that basis. Does MaxMenus include such a warning? If not, why not? That warning would actually prevent people from using the inappropriate serial number, which is the only laudable objective that the developer should have. On the other hand, explicitly concealing that the software includes spyware serves the additional goal of 'busting' people that use an illegal serial. THAT's the difference between "protecting ones interest" (warning users, so that the illegal serial is never used in the first place) and "vigilante-ism" (busting them).

FWIW, I downloaded and tried MaxMenus (without the knowledge that it included spyware). I liked it. It's even worth $20. But promoting further encroachment of software users' rights is not worth any price. I've therefore deleted the offending (and offensive) program from my hard drive.



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