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10.6: Snow Leopard DVD is full OS X install disc System 10.6
Despite Apple's suggestion on the Snow Leopard specs page that, when going from Tiger 10.4.x to Snow Leopard, you should buy the box set...
Upgrading from Mac OS X v10.4 Tiger: If your Intel-based Mac is running Mac OS X v10.4 Tiger, purchase the Mac Box Set, which is a single, affordable package that includes Mac OS X v10.6 Snow Leopard.
...I bought the family-pack DVD, and installed it on my 10.5 laptop and my 10.4 desktop without any problems.

[robg adds: Jason Snell covered this interesting fact in his Snow Leopard review, where he pointed out a key benefit of Apple's honor system approach:
...the standard version of Snow Leopard is a bootable "full install" disc that doesn't actually check for the presence of Leopard in order to install. This also means that if, at a later time, you want to wipe your hard drive and reinstall Snow Leopard, you won't have to first install Leopard and then run a separate Snow Leopard upgrade on top of it. (That sound you hear is a thousand IT managers sighing with relief.)
There are advantages to the box set, in addition to complying with Apple's licensing terms -- you get new versions of iLife ($79) and iWork ($79), which essentially lowers the cost of Snow Leopard to $11.]
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10.6: Snow Leopard DVD is full OS X install disc
Authored by: Geobunny on Oct 15, '09 07:53:26AM
I think this is probably related to the fact that some people running 10.5 only had upgrade discs from 10.4. Basically, if Apple had gone for the same solution again, users with issues who want to reinstall 10.6 from scratch in the future would have to start at 10.4 and upgrade to 10.5 before upgrading again to 10.6.

I think Apple have gone for the sensible approach this time - it's a better experience for users and has the added benefit of Apple not needing to press and ship two versions of the disc.

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Problems while trying to do a full Snow Leopard install
Authored by: pjdraud on Oct 15, '09 08:38:24AM

I tried reinstalling Snow Leopard from scratch the other day. When I boot my iMac with the DVD in the drive, I can hear the DVD being read while I get the gray screen with the Apple logo and the spinning circle, and it just stays at that screen indefinitely (at least I think so -- I waited for about half an hour before shutting it off). Is this a known problem? Do I just need to wait longer?



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10.6: Snow Leopard DVD is full OS X install disc
Authored by: TonyT on Oct 15, '09 09:13:30AM

"..I bought the family-pack DVD, and installed it on my 10.5 laptop and my 10.4 desktop without any problems. "

You're in violation of the SLA that you agreed to when you clicked "Agree".



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10.6: Snow Leopard DVD is full OS X install disc
Authored by: elmimmo on Oct 15, '09 09:41:16AM

Nowhere on the box or disc of my 10.6 (Japanese retail) copy it says it is an upgrade or that it requires a specific previous version of the OS. Only us geeks, reading too much internet literature think this is an upgrade.



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10.6: Snow Leopard DVD is full OS X install disc
Authored by: TonyT on Oct 15, '09 10:07:06AM
You agreed to it when you installed 10.6 and clicked "Agree" Take a look in your /Library/Documentation directory for "License" C. Leopard Upgrade Licenses. If you have purchased an Upgrade for Mac OS X Leopard license, then subject to the terms and conditions of this License, you are granted a limited non-exclusive license to install, use and run one (1) copy of the Apple Software on a single Apple-branded computer as long as that computer has a properly licensed copy of Mac OS X Leopard already installed on it.

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10.6: Snow Leopard DVD is full OS X install disc
Authored by: mantrid on Oct 15, '09 10:22:58AM

What makes you think that section doesn't only apply to the $9.95 "Leopard Upgrade License"? The "Single Use" and "Family Pack" license doesn't include any such clause.

The whole situation is full of ambiguities. I don't know who is right.

Either Apple is forcing Tiger users to buy a more expensive bundle, forcing them to pay more for a package containing software they don't want, acting like some greedy evil megacorporation.

Or the minority of users still on Tiger really are allowed to upgrade for $29, but Apple is allowing their marketing department to imply that they have to buy a Box set, and despite all the confusion, refrain from making a definitive statement one way or another, being happy to pocket the extra cash from honest well intentioned Mac users, like some greedy evil megacorporation.

Either way, Apple looks bad, and either way, it undermines respect for their EULA.

It's rare to see Apple bungle an image issue this badly.



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10.6: Snow Leopard DVD is full OS X install disc
Authored by: frgough on Oct 15, '09 10:25:15AM

How about this. Instead of being a timid little church mouse, pay for the family pack, install it on your machines according to the dictates of your conscience and call it good. Apple is not God, and you are not its slave.



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10.6: Snow Leopard DVD is full OS X install disc
Authored by: TonyT on Oct 15, '09 11:00:25AM

If you don't want to agree to the License, just click "Do not agree", otherwise click "Agree", admit the theft to yourself and don't try to rationalize it.



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10.6: Snow Leopard DVD is full OS X install disc
Authored by: TonyT on Oct 15, '09 10:55:10AM

License is clear. You must copy of Mac OS X Leopard already installed to be in compliance with the SLA.



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10.6: Snow Leopard DVD is full OS X install disc
Authored by: elmimmo on Oct 15, '09 08:01:06PM

Sorry pal, that is techno babble added AFTER I payed for a disk that does not state such requirements in the box.

Besides, why License C and not A? A fits what the box says better (no "update" stated anywhere). C says, "If you have acquired an update license…". Well, like I said, I didn't.



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10.6: Snow Leopard DVD is full OS X install disc
Authored by: frgough on Oct 15, '09 10:23:38AM

There's one in every crowd...

Leave the guy alone. He paid for a family pack. His karma is good.



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10.6: Snow Leopard DVD is full OS X install disc
Authored by: TonyT on Oct 15, '09 11:07:17AM

I'm sure he didn't realize that he's in violation of the SLA for his desktop Mac, otherwise he would not have posted this as a 'Hint'.



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10.6: Snow Leopard DVD is full OS X install disc
Authored by: TicToc on Oct 15, '09 04:33:52PM
You're in violation of the SLA that you agreed to when you clicked "Agree".
Sorry, but that's incorrect. Please note that the OP said
..I bought the family-pack DVD, and installed it on my 10.5 laptop and my 10.4 desktop without any problems.

Here's what my license terms say:

B. Family Pack License. If you have purchased a Family Pack license, then subject to the terms and conditions of this License, you are granted a limited non-exclusive license to install, use and run one (1) copy of the Apple Software on up to a maximum of five (5) Apple-branded computers at a time as long as those computers are located in the same household and used by persons who occupy that same household. By "household" we mean a person or persons who share the same housing unit such as a home, apartment, mobile home or condominium, but shall also extend to student members who are primary residents of that household but residing at a separate on-campus location. The Family Pack License does not extend to business or commercial users.
You quoted section C which relates to Leopard Upgrade Licenses.

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10.6: Snow Leopard DVD is full OS X install disc
Authored by: TonyT on Oct 17, '09 05:49:25AM

>You quoted section C which relates to Leopard Upgrade Licenses.

Only because it applies. Apple only sells an upgrade disk. Clearly stated on the Apple Website.
I'm amazed at the lengths that people go to (based on these posts) to convince themselves that they've done nothing wrong in order to save a hundred bucks.



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10.6: Snow Leopard DVD is full OS X install disc
Authored by: mantrid on Oct 17, '09 06:14:45AM

> Apple only sells an upgrade disk.

So your position is that section C applies to all 10.6 disks, and that all 10.6 disks require a prior installation of Leopard.

That is clearly incorrect considering the first sentence of section C begins "If you have purchased an Upgrade for Mac OS X Leopard license...", the "If" indicating that other types of license to which section C does not apply exist. Furthermore, section A. begins "Subject to the terms and conditions of this License, unless you have purchased a Family Pack or Upgrade license for the Apple Software"... again implying that section C only applies to a subset of cases.

And if you are claiming that Apple only sells an upgrade disk and therefore must have Leopard preinstalled regardless, that means even if 10.4 users buy a Box Set, they would still be ineligible to install it since they don't already have Leopard.

With no indication on the packages as to what licenses are in effect, the situation isn't nearly as black and white as you assert. All Apple would have to have done to make it clear is put "Single Use" license or "Upgrade License" on the box.

Oh, and for the record, I haven't paid a cent for Snow Leopard so it's all academic to me.



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10.6: Snow Leopard DVD is full OS X install disc
Authored by: TonyT on Oct 17, '09 07:09:21AM

>So your position is that section C applies to all 10.6 disks, and that all 10.6 disks require a prior installation of Leopard.

No, Apple used the same disk, however, per the SLA (which users agree to) , Tiger users must use the Mac Box Set.

All legalese aside, Apple's intent is perfectly clear.

>Oh, and for the record, I haven't paid a cent for Snow Leopard so it's all academic to me.

Oh, so I guess I should 'interpret' that statement to mean that you borrowed a friends disk to install on your machine. Or do you mean that you use Windows? I guess its up to me to decide.



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10.6: Snow Leopard DVD is full OS X install disc
Authored by: mantrid on Oct 17, '09 09:09:44AM

> All legalese aside, Apple's intent is perfectly clear.
How convenient that you choose to set aside the "legalese" when your interpretation of the license agreement has been challenged after you attempted to subject all Apple disks (unwittingly including Box Set customers in the sweeping statement) to clause C. You can't set aside the "legalese" because when it comes down to it, the "legalese" is the only thing relevant to this discussion. The clauses are outlined clearly in the license agreement but the relationship between the clauses and which products they apply to is not.

As you said in your other post, leaving the "family pack" versions out of the discussion, there are $9.95 (or free for the software if you call that shipping and handling), $29 and $169 packages available for purchase to upgrade to Snow Leopard. There are only two relevant clauses in the license agreement, "A: Single Use" and "C: Upgrade", but there are three packages. Which versions fall under which clauses? Quoting the passage you yourself quoted,
> The Snow Leopard single user license will be available for a suggested retail price of $29 (US)

That sure sounds to me like Section "A: Single Use", more so than section "C: Upgrade", applies to the $29 disk. Are you still unwilling to concede that there is ambiguity? Since this seems to tie the specific product to the specific clause in the license agreement, I think that weakens the case for your interpretation that clause A does not refer to the $29 version although I wouldn't consider the quote to be binding as much as the actual license agreement and what is on the box.

> Oh, so I guess I should 'interpret' that statement to mean that you borrowed a friends disk to install on your machine. Or do you mean that you use Windows? I guess its up to me to decide.

You can "decide" all you want, but you need to learn that what you "decide" doesn't change the reality. The fact of the matter is I don't own a compatible Mac so I have no intention of acquiring Snow Leopard, have not acquired it to date, and therefore have not paid a cent for it. But do you see how you took an ambiguous statement, fitted it to your own preconceptions and didn't hesitate to make insinuations based on it? You have thrown around some inflammatory statements in this thread directed toward other members. I think you have established your credibility level.



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10.6: Snow Leopard DVD is full OS X install disc
Authored by: TonyT on Oct 17, '09 09:41:42AM

You can rationalize a theft to your hearts content, but it will not change the fact that the user is granted a limited non-exclusive license as long as such computer has a properly licensed copy of Mac OS X Leopard already installed on it.

Whatever makes you sleep at night.....



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10.6: Snow Leopard DVD is full OS X install disc
Authored by: TonyT on Oct 17, '09 09:57:58AM

>That sure sounds to me like Section "A: Single Use", more so than section "C: Upgrade"

Sorry, you can't pick and choose. A and C are not mutually exclusive. Based on your flawed logic, "C." would never apply.

Unless Leopard is installed on your Mac, you cannot legally use the $29 package.



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10.6: Snow Leopard DVD is full OS X install disc
Authored by: mantrid on Oct 17, '09 04:09:26PM

> You can rationalize a theft to your hearts content
What theft are you talking about? You can't be referring to me, despite your earlier insinuations, since I clarified that I don't own and can't even install Snow Leopard. If you are generalizing by using the indefinite article, I'm not rationalizing any thefts on behalf of any other posters since the licensing terms have not been properly defined. If Apple were to post a revised EULA or started marking new 10.6 boxes appropriately and people vioated the terms, I certainly would not condone such actions although I wouldn't think badly of anyone who purchased earlier. So why do you think I would have trouble sleeping? Lets get this cleared up. Who are you accusing of theft?

> Sorry, you can't pick and choose. A and C are not mutually exclusive.
Are you sure? What is your Apple employee ID, and have you been authorized to make statements on their behalf? Unless you are connected to Apple, the fact is you don't know any more than the rest of us. Let's see, so you imply that the $29 disk is covered by C (in addition to the A which your Apple>Ars quote matches to). Where does it say that about C and the $29 disk in the license, disk or box? The Box Set is only covered by A but not C? Which paragraph is that in? Who is the one guilty of picking and choosing here? A and B are certainly mutually exclusive. But A and C aren't? C reiterates what is stated in A and adds the Leopard requirement which gives the impression that it is a separate class of license that is distinct from A and B.

> Based on your flawed logic, "C." would never apply.
Why is that? Your logic in arriving at that conclusion is flawed. Nothing I have said would exlude C. from applying to the $9.95 Mac OS X Snow Leopard Up-To-Date upgrade package (that's the one where you only pay shipping and handling). I can certainly see why Apple would insist that users owned Leopard to be eligible for the license that gives you the OS for free. To be eligible, one would have to have bought the last of the Leopard Macs after Snow Leopard was announced and since such systems would have had Leopard pre-installed, the restriction makes sense in that context. In contrast, gouging Tiger users by forcing them to buy a $169 box set seems distinctly un-Apple like. Nothing you have said definitively states that C applies to the $29 disk. It doesn't require any logic at all to engage in your preferred tactic of saying something over and over again, but it isn't a convincing argument and saying it over and over doesn't alter reality. It was your earlier flawed logic that made C apply to all disks (">Apple only sells an upgrade disk") that would have made it impossible for Tiger users to upgrade directly. Actually, if your logic were correct, it would mean Apple marketing would be promoting non-compliance of their own EULA, so I think it is fair to say a trend is emerging with respect to the calibre of your logic.



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Ugh. Enough!
Authored by: tedw on Oct 17, '09 12:12:43PM
Anyone who thinks this conversation is going to go anywhere at all should take a few moments to read up on Kohlberg's stages of moral development. So far I've seen every stage reflected in these arguments except stage 1 (the "it's bad because Apple's gonna get you" argument). People at stage 2 are simply not going to understand the stage 5 argument that an SLA represents a social contract that should be respected and interpreted generously, because people at stage 2 don't yet grok society as anything more than a haphazard collection of individuals. And besides, corporations tend to operate at the pre-conventional level in their own right; Apple is better than most (at least it is not obsessively bent on manipulating legalities for its own benefit, the way Microsoft - historically speaking - has always acted), but it's still not that far up the chart. Accept the facts:
  1. people who don't know any better are going to cheat the system
  2. people who do know better aren't
  3. there's not a darned thing you can do to teach the first group to be like the second (they just have to learn on their own)
  4. and most important, that Apple has had the grace not to make everyone's life more difficult by trying to reign in the first group
my advice is to drop the issue, figure out who the cheaters are, and then line up some good halloween tricks to play on them. :)

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Ugh. Enough!
Authored by: mantrid on Oct 17, '09 04:22:02PM

I don't think there is a moral dilemma here or any moral reasoning in play here at all. I think only one or two people here have suggested knowingly breaking the license agreement or tried to justify doing so (the site owner ironically being one). Everybody else is split between those that believe that the SLA allows the $29 disk to be used without Leopard, those that believe it doesn't, and those that don't know which is true (like me). Doesn't the number of posters on both sides of the argument say to you the rules in the license are ambiguous?

> And besides, corporations tend to operate at the pre-conventional level in their own right; Apple is better than most ... but it's still not that far up the chart.

Now that is an interesting point and cuts closer to why I want to see the licensing ambiguities clarified by Apple. If Apple is in fact punishing Tiger users for skipping Leopard and gouging them by forcing them (by not offering a stand alone 10.6 upgrade) to buy a $169 box instead of the usual $129, that is the sort of tactic that I disapprove of to the point that I will look toward migrating away from the Mac platform (as it happens, I'm due for a new computer). So when 10.7 comes out retailing in the more traditional $129 range, are 10.5 users still going to be gouged for a $169 box set? If that's the road Apple is taking, I'll be getting out and warning others to avoid Mac lock-in.

If on the other hand the $29 disk is a single user license and it's just marketing pushing the box set for Tiger users, well that's just marketing and a lesser (and tolerable) evil. With this scenario, while Tiger users would be getting a bargain, Mac users tend to jump to upgrade as soon as they can anyway so I wonder how many (or few) of them there actually are and how many of them would bother to upgrade if they have been happy with Tiger up to now. In my vision of Apple as innovation leaders, and the plucky underdog that (historically) represented all that MS was not for all of these years, I could see them absorbing the relatively small cost of giving the few remaining Tiger users a break as a good will gesture to try to move people up to speed with Intel-code only OS X that is 10.6.

The $29 cost is itself a good will gesture so would people have been any less appreciative if it had been $39 to cover the remaining Tiger users without gouging them? Or did the accountants already do a similar calculation, and arrive at the $29 price that took into account Tiger users in the first place?

It isn't about saving a hundred bucks. Resolving what the actual licensing situation is will speak volumes about what type of company the Apple of today is and will factor in whether people want to do business with them.



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Ugh. Enough!
Authored by: TonyT on Oct 17, '09 05:30:55PM

> If Apple is in fact punishing Tiger users for skipping Leopard and gouging them by forcing them (by not offering a stand alone 10.6 upgrade) to buy a $169 box instead of the usual $129,

'Punishing', 'Gouging' -- at $40? This is your issue? (and you conveniently neglect to state that the box includes iLife & iWork)

> If that's the road Apple is taking, I'll be getting out and warning others to avoid Mac lock-in.

If? The SL upgrade path is clear. (...and why would you need to warn anyone? They can decide for themselves.)

> Resolving what the actual licensing situation is will speak volumes about what type of company the Apple of today is and will factor in whether people want to do business with them.

Nothing to resolve. The SLA is clear.

"To be clear, installing the $29 upgrade to Snow Leopard on a system not already running a properly licensed copy of Leopard is a violation of the end-user license agreement that comes with the product. But Apple's decision is a refreshing change: rewarding honest people with a hassle-free product rather than trying to punish dishonest people by treating everyone like a criminal. This "honor system" upgrade enforcement policy partially explains the big jump to $169 for the Mac Box Set, which ends up re-framed as an honest person's way to get iLife and iWork at their usual prices, plus Snow Leopard for $11 more." -- http://arstechnica.com/apple/reviews/2009/08/mac-os-x-10-6.ars/2



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Ugh. Enough!
Authored by: tedw on Oct 17, '09 05:55:05PM
If you don't believe there's a moral reasoning issue here, you haven't read the Kohlberg link I provided, and haven't really followed the arguments that have been presented. The question at hand is whether the mere fact that one can use the $29 dvd to to install a workable version of SL means that one should do that, despite the fact that Apple indicates pretty clearly that that's not what they want. It's essentially the same as wondering whether you can park in a handicapped zone when you're sure that no disabled people or meter police are around. Sure you can do it, sure you can get away with it, sure you can claim you're not harming anyone - does that make it right? you'll get different responses to that question depending on the moral reasoning of the person you ask.

The way I see this issue, Apple recognized that 10.6 is actually closer to an update of Leopard than a new OS. There are a lot of changes under the hood, of course - too much for Apple to give it away as a free update - but not very many changes to the actual top-level functioning of the OS. Apple compromised, and released it as a new OS at a greatly reduced price. Now, if they had released it as an update, Tiger users would have been forced to buy Leopard for $129, just like every other Leopard user. Doing it this way, though, current Leopard users will have paid $169 dollars (over the long run) while Tiger people will end up getting exactly the same software for only $29. Apple doesn't want that (obviously - even the people who say that the SLA allows it can't claim that Apple wants it), and current Leopard users have a right to be somewhat annoyed by it. The only question here is whether or not a given person gives a flying fig about what Apple wants, or about what annoys other people, or about what the 'correct' thing to do in the situation is; or whether that person is merely interested in getting the best deal possible for him/herself by hook, or crook, or schnook. That question is answered by any given person according to the stage of moral reasoning s/he is at when s/he asks it.

I'm not here to say what's right or wrong in the situation. I'm just pointing out that there's no sense going on about it. Any argument that gets made is only going to get heard by the people who are already predisposed to agree with it, and is just going to sail right by anyone else.

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Ugh. Enough!
Authored by: mantrid on Oct 18, '09 08:07:04AM
If you don't believe there's a moral reasoning issue here, you haven't read the Kohlberg link I provided, and haven't really followed the arguments that have been presented. I'm not here to say what's right or wrong in the situation.
On the contrary, your comments suggest you have implicitly accepted the interpretation that using the $29 disk with Tiger is against the license and therefore "wrong", and based on that viewpoint, decided that a moral issue is attached to the discussion. By failing to recognize that the alternative interpretation where a person installing over Tiger in the honest belief that they are allowed to do so does not encounter in a morality choice, it may be you who has failed to follow my argument. Almost nobody in this thread is arguing along the lines of the validity and enforceability of EULAs and those that have installed over Tiger seem sincere in their belief that section C does not apply so the morality issue shouldn't even be a part of the discussion. Had they believed it isn't allowed but done so anyway, then yes, moral reasoning would have been involved but only a couple of comments fall into that category.
I'm just pointing out that there's no sense going on about it. Any argument that gets made is only going to get heard by the people who are already predisposed to agree with it, and is just going to sail right by anyone else.
At the heart of the discussion lies the inability of the two sides to agree on what the license agreement allows. Both sides point to the same three clauses to support their point of view. I can see why either side believes as they do, but find attempts to deny, as one poster has done, the existence of the ambiguity itself to be ludicrous.

Further undermining the possibility of having a polite debate is that the "No" side seems predisposed to think that anybody taking the "Yes" side is doing so disingenuously, and immediately casting aspersions on their morality. The blindness to the opposing view or refusal to acknowledge the possible existence of an alternate opinion is reminiscent of trying to argue with religious fundamentalists (of any faith), so I agree with you in so far as productive debate being unlikely but disagree that differing levels of Kohlberg style moral functioning is to blame.

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Ugh. Enough!
Authored by: tedw on Oct 18, '09 10:17:13AM
On the contrary, your comments suggest you have implicitly accepted the interpretation that using the $29 disk with Tiger is against the license and therefore "wrong", and based on that viewpoint, decided that a moral issue is attached to the discussion. By failing to recognize that the alternative interpretation where a person installing over Tiger in the honest belief that they are allowed to do so does not encounter in a morality choice, it may be you who has failed to follow my argument. Almost nobody in this thread is arguing along the lines of the validity and enforceability of EULAs and those that have installed over Tiger seem sincere in their belief that section C does not apply so the morality issue shouldn't even be a part of the discussion. Had they believed it isn't allowed but done so anyway, then yes, moral reasoning would have been involved but only a couple of comments fall into that category.
The argument that any behavior is ok so long as the person sincerely believed it was ok at the time they did it is (most likely) Stage 3 moral reasoning, in this case casting the person in the role of an 'innocent victim': someone who didn't know it was wrong and is therefore absolved of all responsibility. Unfortunately, that innocence is suspect to begin with (given the number of discussions on this topic floating around the internet) and was certainly tossed out the window by the third or fourth post on this thread. Anyone who has read this far is obliged to take this as a moral issue - even those few who honestly and in all innocence installed 10.6, since they now have to make a moral choice about whether to revert back to Tiger. Further, the claim that I am implicitly making value judgments also seems to be Stage 3 reasoning: you're reducing a primarily philosophical argument to a mere conflict between 'viewpoints', which allows you to equivocate on the moral issue.

moral reasoning is not how you answer a moral question, but how you approach it, including how you decide whether it's a moral question in the first place.

At the heart of the discussion lies the inability of the two sides to agree on what the license agreement allows.
Not quite. One side is arguing about what the SLA allows, the other side is arguing about what the SLA intends. Letter vs. Spirit of the document, with variations. That's a stage difference.
Further undermining the possibility of having a polite debate is that the "No" side seems predisposed to think that anybody taking the "Yes" side is doing so disingenuously, and immediately casting aspersions on their morality. The blindness to the opposing view or refusal to acknowledge the possible existence of an alternate opinion is reminiscent of trying to argue with religious fundamentalists (of any faith), so I agree with you in so far as productive debate being unlikely but disagree that differing levels of Kohlberg style moral functioning is to blame.
Granted that there are people who make that kind of judgement (that's Stage 4 reasoning: a belief that authoritative rules should be followed conscientiously for the good of everyone, and a consequent anger when they aren't). Granted also that there are those on the 'yes' side who seem to have no conception of the value of authoritative rules (which is pure Stage 2 reasoning). Kohlberg is a descriptive typology, not an ascriptive one, so it's not 'to blame' for anything. if you want to disagree about the description, we can discuss that, of course...

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Ugh. Enough!
Authored by: TonyT on Oct 18, '09 09:19:07AM

>If you don't believe there's a moral reasoning issue here, you haven't read the Kohlberg link I provided, and haven't really followed the arguments that have been presented.

I have, and I agree.

>It's essentially the same as wondering whether you can park in a handicapped zone when you're sure that no disabled people or meter police are around. Sure you can do it, sure you can get away with it, sure you can claim you're not harming anyone - does that make it right? you'll get different responses to that question depending on the moral reasoning of the person you ask.

I always assumed that anyone that does this would agree that doing so is wrong (...but now I remember that old Seinfeld episode).

>The way I see this issue, Apple recognized that 10.6 is actually closer to an update of Leopard than a new OS. There are a lot of changes under the hood, of course - too much for Apple to give it away as a free update - but not very many changes to the actual top-level functioning of the OS. Apple compromised, and released it as a new OS at a greatly reduced price. Now, if they had released it as an update, Tiger users would have been forced to buy Leopard for $129, just like every other Leopard user. Doing it this way, though, current Leopard users will have paid $169 dollars (over the long run) while Tiger people will end up getting exactly the same software for only $29. Apple doesn't want that (obviously - even the people who say that the SLA allows it can't claim that Apple wants it), and current Leopard users have a right to be somewhat annoyed by it. The only question here is whether or not a given person gives a flying fig about what Apple wants, or about what annoys other people, or about what the 'correct' thing to do in the situation is; or whether that person is merely interested in getting the best deal possible for him/herself by hook, or crook, or schnook. That question is answered by any given person according to the stage of moral reasoning s/he is at when s/he asks it.

Again, agreed.

>I'm not here to say what's right or wrong in the situation. I'm just pointing out that there's no sense going on about it. Any argument that gets made is only going to get heard by the people who are already predisposed to agree with it, and is just going to sail right by anyone else.

Agreed.

> Ugh. Enough!

....And finally, --- Agreed



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Ugh. Enough!
Authored by: tedw on Oct 18, '09 10:23:34AM

lol - ok, I can agree with that. :)



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off-topic from the Snow Leopard DVD
Authored by: grahamperrin on Jul 15, '11 08:02:26AM
> … warning others to avoid Mac lock-in. … Consider the MacWorld articles referred from my post under Mac OS X Licensing from Mac App Store - MacRumors Forums. Whilst the license for 10.7 has not been published, early indications are that Apple will take an extremely respectable approach to installations and uses of the operating system. Before jumping to conclusions about who should be warned and why, I suggest awaiting further information from Apple. Bear in mind, most of what's currently published is oriented to day one purchases.

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10.6: Snow Leopard DVD is full OS X install disc
Authored by: TonyT on Oct 15, '09 10:12:01AM
On your Mac HD, Read: Library/Documentation/License --------> C. Leopard Upgrade Licenses. If you have purchased an Upgrade for Mac OS X Leopard license, then subject to the terms and conditions of this License, you are granted a limited non-exclusive license to install, use and run one (1) copy of the Apple Software on a single Apple-branded computer as long as that computer has a properly licensed copy of Mac OS X Leopard already installed on it. If you have purchased a Family Pack Upgrade for Mac OS X Leopard license, then subject to the terms and conditions of this License, you are granted a limited non-exclusive license to install, use and run one (1) copy of the Apple Software on up to a maximum of five (5) Apple-branded computers at a time as long as those computers are located in the same household (as defined above), are used by persons who occupy that same household, and each such computer has a properly licensed copy of Mac OS X Leopard already installed on it.

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10.6: Snow Leopard DVD is full OS X install disc
Authored by: junkie on Oct 15, '09 11:15:30AM
Tony, according to Apple license they were supposed to release an upgrade version of the OS and a full version of the OS. Nowhere on the box that you buy from Apple does it say upgrade. If you buy 10.6 online, your bill of sale says "Mac OS X 10.6 Snow Leopard". Why would any reasonable person think that that version is the upgrade as opposed to simply a single user license or a family pack license? It does not say upgrade anywhere. As far as I am concerned Apple never sold an upgrade version and they are selling the Single User license for $29 and the Family Pack for $49. There is no upgrade version because they don't sell anything called that. They are only selling the full Single User License and Family Pack license and there is no restriction regarding previous OS version on those. If Apple sold an upgrade version and called it that then you might have a point, but Apple does not sell that product. This is the relevant portion of the clause of the license for the product Apple sells:
A. Single Use License. Subject to the terms and conditions of this License, unless you have purchased a Family Pack or Upgrade license for the Apple Software, you are granted a limited non-exclusive license to install, use and run one (1) copy of the Apple Software on a single Apple-branded computer at a time.
See I have not purchased an upgrade, so the Single User License is relevant, not the Upgrade clause and there is no restriction there. and
B. Family Pack License. If you have purchased a Family Pack license, then subject to the terms and conditions of this License, you are granted a limited non-exclusive license to install, use and run one (1) copy of the Apple Software on up to a maximum of five (5) Apple-branded computers at a time as long as those computers are located in the same household and used by persons who occupy that same household.
Again, no Upgrade version is being sold. Nowhere on the box does it say upgrade, the website says I am buying plain old 10.6. The section that you cite is in the License but they refer to products that were never released so no one with 10.4 is breaking the license since everyone is buying the full version.

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10.6: Snow Leopard DVD is full OS X install disc
Authored by: TonyT on Oct 15, '09 11:26:26AM

Its very clear on Apple's Website (and it's not a 'suggestion' either) -- If your Intel-based Mac is running Mac OS X v10.4 Tiger, purchase the Mac Box Set. (and the SLA is also clear on this point).



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10.6: Snow Leopard DVD is full OS X install disc
Authored by: junkie on Oct 15, '09 07:54:40PM

The website says the Box Set is the "best way" to upgrade for Tiger users. Sounds like a suggestion to me. Best way does not mean only way or only allowable way. What it needs to say is this is the Upgrade version and there needs to be another version that is the full version - and that needs to be clear. In fact the Box Set also says its an upgrade.

But more to the point, this product is also sold in stores and by Amazon and a ton of other 3rd party retailers. If I walk into an Apple store, pay $29 and walk out NO WHERE am I told I just bought an upgrade and not a full version. No sticker. No label. No marking. Nothing. That is because the Upgrade version was never made - it does not exist. Look at the Apple store, on the right they show two versions, a single user and family pack, neither of these is called an upgrade as it would need to be under the license. The box at the very least should describe what it is - it just says it is Snow Leopard 10.6.

Look, if Apple wants to enforce this policy they need to make an upgrade version, make it clear and make that the $29 version if that is there intention. As far as this packaging shows there is no "Upgrade" version. There is no sense in pretending that Apple is following its own policy when it doesn't care to make the products it defines in its license.

This user and any user who installs on 10.4 does nothing wrong.



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10.6: Snow Leopard DVD is full OS X install disc
Authored by: TonyT on Oct 15, '09 08:15:59PM

>NO WHERE am I told I just bought an upgrade and not a full version

Go the the Apple Store on the Web, it says: "Mac OS X 10.6 Snow Leopard - Upgrade from Mac OS X Leopard with Snow Leopard - Snow Leopard is an upgrade for Leopard users and requires a Mac with an Intel processor."

But, I guess you'll now argue that this only applies if you buy it direct from Apple on the web.

Apple needs to implements a system similar to Microsoft's "Windows Genuine Advantage" to prevent theft of their software.



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Like OS X Server...
Authored by: gabester on Oct 15, '09 08:52:17PM

The day Apple implements WGA-style licensing and activation a la Microsoft is the day many of their customers will switch to Ubuntu.

Actually, they already have something like it implemented for Mac OS X Server... but I can understand that for a $500+ piece of software that is not widely deployed. For a desktop OS, however, serial numbers or activation keys or wga checks are all quite a "bag of hurt" to those legitimately implementing the software and pose no impediment whatsoever to those who have no interest in doing so.
g=



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Like OS X Server...
Authored by: TonyT on Oct 15, '09 09:13:47PM

I agree, hopefully only a small % of sales are lost from these 'hints'. What makes it worse is when major publications condone the practice (Goatberg from the WSJ said "But here's a tip: Apple concedes that the $29 Snow Leopard upgrade will work properly on these Tiger-equipped Macs, so you can save the extra $140." Unbelievable.



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10.6: Snow Leopard DVD is full OS X install disc
Authored by: junkie on Oct 18, '09 06:18:30AM

Yes, that is the point. It effectively only applies to versions sold from Apple, online because that is the only place where one gets any indication that there is any intent to sell a product that has no markings that it is an upgrade as an upgrade. And even then the notification is insufficient.

You need to look at it from the standpoint not of an Apple fan who lives on every word that Apple says but from the standpoint of a reasonable person buying an upgrade for his or her computer. If he walks into a Best Buy, buys a SL disk and goes home and installs it, he has not done anything wrong. And even if he cares to read the SLA, clicking agree on the SLA, there was no reasonable way for him to know that the terms for the Upgrade might apply to him, in fact they don't. There is no mention of upgrade on the box or likely from Best Buy. And in fact the disk works to upgrade from 10.4. The creator of the software made no reasonable attempt to protect the software from a use it did not intend.

If Apple sold three boxes that said upgrade from 10.5 $29, upgrade from 10.4 $129 and Box Set $169, and clearly on the box it was written what was what and the SLA referred correctly to each of these versions making it clear what the rules were for each, then you would have an argument, that would be reasonable indication what is allowable. The customer would have actual notice about the allowable uses of the product that was sold and at the moment of clicking agree the customer would have fair warning of whether or not the use the customer intends for the product is conforms to the agreement or not.

It is as if I bought a DVD that contained Season 1 - 3 of Friends. On the box it says Season 1 - 3 of Friends. But if I look at the details of the license it says if I bought the partial license then I only have rights to watch season one, if I buy the full license I have rights to watch all three. Yet nowhere on the box does it say what is being sold or what version I own. It just says Season 1 - 3 of Friends. At no time when I bought the DVD was there a mention of which version I was buying.

Now if I had gone to the Universal website I might see that they say "to watch all season of Friends buy the Friends, ER Seinfeld Box Set". And in another place they say Season 1 - 3 of Friends is only a partial license. But then when purchasing the DVD, even on their own website, they have no options for partial or full license, it only says Season 1 - 3 of Friends.

Your argument is that I am somehow breaking an agreement by watching season two and three when I have had no reasonable notice from the seller or the product itself that all of the contents of the product are not rightfully mine to use. You say that somehow it is my duty as a buyer to go back to the manufacturers website and check whether I have full use of the item that was sold to me before I watch season two or three even though from the product and the retailer I have had not indication that I am not rightfully entitled to season one thru three of Friends. I don't think any reasonable person would be expected to do this.

If you are going to sell a product to someone that does X Y and Z and in fact your intention is that X and Y are allowable but Z is not, then your should have clear indication on the product that, hey you think you are buying Z but you are not. Z is in the box but you are not allowed to do Z. Z is included as a courtesy to other people but not to you.



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10.6: Snow Leopard DVD is full OS X install disc
Authored by: TonyT on Oct 18, '09 09:38:09AM

>Yes, that is the point. It effectively only applies to versions sold from Apple, online because that is the only place where one gets any indication that there is any intent to sell a product that has no markings that it is an upgrade as an upgrade. And even then the notification is insufficient.

Nope, In order to Install 10.6, you MUST agree to the terms of the SLA. The terms are presented to you and you MUST click AGREE. If the buyer does not own Leopard (item C), then he can't agree to the terms. If he does not understand the terms, then he also can't Agree. But the buyer is not harmed, the seller will issue him a refund.

>The creator of the software made no reasonable attempt to protect the software from a use it did not intend.

Incorrect, Apple makes it mandatory for the purchaser to agree to the terms in order to install the software. (You would only be correct if the software were installed even if the user clicked Disagree)



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10.6: Snow Leopard DVD is full OS X install disc
Authored by: junkie on Oct 20, '09 04:37:24AM

Yes my slow friend but the problem is not with the terms of the SLA, it is that in the real world the product you think is described in the terms does not exist. Despite what Apple may say in one area of their website, there is no upgrade version in the real world. Everyone buying the $29 version of the product is buying the single user version of the product, according to the box, according to the function of the contents of the box. They have no reason to think that a clause referring to upgrade has anything to do with them. The section you cite refers to an upgrade version that does not exist. The only term that is relevant is the one without the requirement of 10.5.



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10.6: Snow Leopard DVD is full OS X install disc
Authored by: tedw on Oct 20, '09 08:24:32AM
"Yes my slow friend..."
Junkie, this is a good line if you're trying to piss someone off, but not such a good line if you're trying to make a reasonable argument. Which are you aiming to do?

Regardless, we are not discussing here what someone might (in all innocence) think or do if they happen to buy the dvd on a whim. We are discussing whether a thoughtful, informed person can ethically follow the instructions given in this hint. It's one thing if something installs the OS ignorantly, sure; but you can't reasonably use an 'ignorance' argument when we're talking about following instructions that start with the phrase "Despite Apple's suggestion on the Snow Leopard specs page...". At that point everybody *knows* it's not what Apple wants, and the only question left is whether one should do it anyway.

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10.6: Snow Leopard DVD is full OS X install disc
Authored by: David Allen on Oct 15, '09 11:21:29PM
I think that the Apple website is quite explicit about what Apple intends for folks to purchase.

Upgrading from Mac OS X v10.5 Leopard. If your Intel-based Mac is running Mac OS X v10.5 Leopard, just purchase Mac OS X v10.6 Snow Leopard and follow the simple installation instructions.
And to accomplish that they sell both a US$29 package with 1 EULA and a US$59 Family Pack with up to 5 EULA.

Upgrading from Mac OS X v10.4 Tiger. If your Intel-based Mac is running Mac OS X v10.4 Tiger, purchase the Mac Box Set, which is a single, affordable package that includes Mac OS X v10.6 Snow Leopard; iLife '09, with the latest versions of iPhoto, iMovie, GarageBand, iWeb, and iDVD; and iWork '09, Apple's productivity suite for home and office including Pages, Numbers, and Keynote.
And to accomplish that they sell both a US$169 Mac Box Set with 1 EULS and a $US229 Mac Box Set Family Pack with up to 5 EULA.

With that pricing structure only a fool and/or a thief would offer the lame excuses/augments posted here by some to appease their own dishonesty.

I am disappointed that Mac OS X Hints printed a hint that encourages dishonesty by stealing. Plain and simple just by posting it to the website this is endorsing the idea that folks can get away with it so go ahead and do it .

---
David Austin Allen
Monterrey, NL, MX

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10.6: Snow Leopard DVD is full OS X install disc
Authored by: robg on Oct 16, '09 05:25:34AM

In the past, we've run hints, or had comments to hints, that cover topics such as converting upgrade CDs to full install CDs, ripping movies from DVDs, downloading QuickTime/YouTube/whatever videos from the web, removing the serial number check from Office, sharing iTunes music outside the local network, recording high definition TV signals, copying music from your iPod to your Mac, and many other such topics. On macworld.com, I've written about jailbreaking your iPhone, and building both desktop and netbook style "Hackintoshes."

At some level, all of these subjects cover activity that could be illegal. Should we therefore have not covered of those topics??

The thing about these hints is that they discuss things that can also be used in a non-illegal manner. For instance, if you've ever had your Mac hard drive die without a backup, taking all your purchased music with it, then Senuti (which copies music from your iPod to your Mac) is a lifesaver. Yes, it can be used to steal music from others' iPods , too, but how the program is used is up to the user, not the developer.

The same is true of DVD ripping apps -- they can be used to steal rented movies, or they can be used to convert your owned DVDs into a format that's much easier to travel with, and that offers longer battery life on your laptop.

Just because something has a "bad" use doesn't mean that it can't have "good" uses, too. In this particular case, knowing that the 10.6 disc is a full install can help those who, as pointed out in other comments, upgraded from 10.4 to 10.5, and then bought the $29 10.6 upgrade: they don't have to do three full OS installs if they ever rebuild their systems.

It can also help those who may have already purchased new versions of both iLife and iWork, and are balking at forking over $150 again for software they already own, just to get the latest OS. In my opinion, Apple really messed up here by trying to keep things too simple -- there's no reasonably-priced upgrade path for such folks: the Snow Leopard upgrade for them costs more than any single full prior release of OS X!

This tidbit about the install DVD was known on the day the OS shipped -- as I linked, it was disclosed in a Macworld review, and on many other sites. We're not revealing any great hidden power that nobody knew about, and that will force people to steal the OS.

Mac OS X Hints was founded on the simple premise of sharing knowledge about the OS X and its associated applications. I see no reason to change that focus just because a given hint can be used in an illegal or morally-wrong manner.

-rob.



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10.6: Snow Leopard DVD is full OS X install disc
Authored by: David Allen on Oct 16, '09 08:46:07AM

I have used Macs since the first 128 k Mac with the 9" grey scale display. I bought it (maxed out the one credit card my papá gave me to use for emergencies) when I went to the USA to attend graduate seminary at SMU in Dallas, TX. I have bought new Macs as I could and saved to buy the new OS when it came out. It was not always easy to keep up with the information prior to the world changing internet so my memory and history is perhaps wholly, but please Rob, tell me when Apple has not released a full install disk for the Mac OS X? When has the disk ever required an installation of the prior version of Mac OS X before it would make an installation?

This operating system only legally functions on one brand of computers. The only time there is a first time buyer of Mac OS X is when that person is a first time buyer of a Macintosh computer. Every version of the Mac OS is an upgrade. Every retail disk with Mac OS X is an upgrade disk. And every retail disk that I can recall is a fully operational installation disk.

The only person to whom this might be a revelation of earth shattering proportions is someone who wandered in from the hit man tactics of upgrading Windows.

I admit to being a bit of a geeky prude because I am a solitary religious working as a psychologist in human resources, even though I am a citizen of a 3rd world nation where everyone around me has pirated everything, so believing in honesty comes with the territory, but I fail to see a true ethical use of posting this hint. And yes the information is out there, as you mention from day one, but you have now given your imprimatur that to use it must somehow be OK.

---
David Austin Allen
Monterrey, NL, MX



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10.6: Snow Leopard DVD is full OS X install disc
Authored by: TonyT on Oct 17, '09 05:58:39AM

Nothing wrong with MacWorld posting this. Rob stated that to do this would violate the SLA. What really surprised me was how people try to convince themselves that they've done nothing wrong.
Did you see Goatbergs review of 10.6 in The Wall Street Journal? I can't believe that he told readers "...the $29 Snow Leopard upgrade will work properly on these Tiger-equipped Macs, so you can save the extra $140."



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10.6: Snow Leopard DVD is full OS X install disc
Authored by: Bottacco on Oct 16, '09 05:23:41AM

I have read the full thread and there are multiple opinions. I am not going to go into "soul" considerations or even EULA considerations (although they apply). There is a good reason to sell a Mac Box Set to Tiger users, but you have to work in an Apple Shop, Apple Premium Reseller or a support company to know about it. Here is the case:

A client that is running Tiger (10.4.11) buys a $29 (in my case 29€) because he has read in a hint like this that the update works with no problem. Fair enough he puts the DVD in an installs Snow Leopard and after restarting and working for a while he opens his old trusty iWork or iLife... some of the apps won't work in Snow Leopard. If he had bought the Mac Box Set everything would work fine now. And this is the reason why there is a Mac Box Set.

The worse thing about all this is that this client went back to the shop to complain about it, because that iLife came with his machine when he bought it (I know, the complaint is stupid, but this is the kind of people we have to deal with at APRs and support centers). The salesman that sold the Snow Leopard to him did tell him that he had to have Leopard installed, but the client was "too smart" for the salesman and stated that he didn't care because he knew that it did work anyway.

The client left without exchanging his Snow Leopard DVD for a Mac Box Set or without buying iLife '09, so I am sure he copied it or downloaded it from a torrent after arriving home (he was not a regular client, just one of those that calls every shop to know who has de product in stock).

But if he didn't mind braking the EULA, he didn't mind pirating iLife and iWork either.



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10.6: Snow Leopard DVD is full OS X install disc
Authored by: robogobo on Oct 16, '09 01:18:00PM

iLife and iWork '08 work fine in my upgrade-installed 10.6. You could just tell them to install Rosetta and save the moral judgements.



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10.6: Snow Leopard DVD is full OS X install disc
Authored by: Bottacco on Oct 17, '09 07:25:56AM

When you bought a machine that came with Tiger the version that came of iLife was '06 or earlier... and that was what the client had. Some apps did open, but they had trouble with some functions while working with them.



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10.6: Snow Leopard DVD is full OS X install disc
Authored by: iBookmaster on Oct 17, '09 08:18:31AM

If it was such a big deal to Apple, don't you think they would use activation? They don't. So, it tells you right there that they really aren't worried about it.



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10.6: Snow Leopard DVD is full OS X install disc
Authored by: TonyT on Oct 17, '09 08:20:20AM

Here's what Ars Technica had to say when 10.6 was released:

The final interesting group is owners of Intel-based Macs that are still running Mac OS X 10.4 Tiger. Apple shipped Intel Macs with Tiger installed for a little over one year and nine months. Owners of these machines who never upgraded to Leopard are not eligible for the $29 upgrade to Snow Leopard. They're also apparently not eligible to purchase Snow Leopard for the traditional $129 price. Here's what Apple has to say about Snow Leopard's pricing (emphasis added).

Mac OS X version 10.6 Snow Leopard will be available as an upgrade to Mac OS X version 10.5 Leopard in September 2009 [...] The Snow Leopard single user license will be available for a suggested retail price of $29 (US) and the Snow Leopard Family Pack, a single household, five-user license, will be available for a suggested price of $49 (US). For Tiger® users with an Intel-based Mac, the Mac Box Set includes Mac OS X Snow Leopard, iLife® '09 and iWork® '09 and will be available for a suggested price of $169 (US) and a Family Pack is available for a suggested price of $229 (US).

Ignoring the family packs for a moment, this means that Snow Leopard will either be free with your new Mac, $29 if you're already running Leopard, or $169 if you have an Intel Mac running Tiger. People upgrading from Tiger will get the latest version of iLife and iWork in the bargain (if that's the appropriate term), whether they want them or not. It sure seems like there's an obvious place in this lineup for a $129 offering of Snow Leopard on its own. Then again, perhaps it all comes down to how, exactly, Apple enforces the $29 Snow Leopard upgrade policy.



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10.6: Snow Leopard DVD is full OS X install disc
Authored by: junkie on Oct 20, '09 04:40:48AM

Guess they got it wrong too.



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