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Remembering September 11th... Site News
Two years ago today, 3,016 people were killed in the terrorist attacks in New York, Pennsylvania, and Washington, DC. In the days since those attacks, thousands of additional innocent men, women, and children have also lost their lives to meaningless violence; lives all lost due to the seeming inability of the human race to simply get along with one another. As a new father, I have hopes that my daughter will be able to grow up in a world at peace, but I fear the reality of the continuation of today's troubled times.

My sympathies go out to all those affected by the terrorist attacks and their continuing repercussions. I will not be running any new hints today; the hints can wait one day while I pause to reflect on how the world has changed since September 11th, 2001.

I hope you all have a peaceful day, and always remember that life is precious and your family and friends are your most important assets.

-rob.
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Remembering September 11th...
Authored by: KenPishna on Sep 11, '03 10:36:04AM

Amen, Rob.



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Remembering September 11th...
Authored by: mattgulvas on Aug 08, '04 04:54:30AM

Check out this 9/11 movie at!: http://dotmac.info/pages/16596



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This is gonna be unpopular
Authored by: ibroughton on Aug 09, '04 06:42:34AM

Yes, the events on Sept 11 were tragic and there was needless loss of life, and should not be forgotten. BUT, lets take a moment to reflect on all the lives, all the civillian lives that have been lost since then on the US war on terrorisim. Yes, I'm British, and I disagree with the recent conflict (and our own government is as much to blame as any other for starting the conflict). But lets face it, what did it solve? How many weapons of mass distruction were found? All it did was to kill some soldiers, killed lots of civillians. In a time of so called 'war' please lets not have propaganda posted on a friendly site. We aren't all US citizens, we aren't all in favour of the recent conflicts, lets have political issues on a more appropriate forum. Remember, in a war, (if you were REALLY being honest) there are no winners or loosers, only survivors.

---
The server is up but the site is down and I don't know which direction you are trying to go



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Remembering September 11th...
Authored by: robJ on Sep 11, '03 10:44:50AM

Well said, Rob. I join you in reflecting on the tragic events of September 11, 2001 and in hoping for a brighter future.

Best regards,
Rob J.



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Remembering September 11th...
Authored by: pepito on Sep 11, '03 12:28:30PM
Remembering September 11th...
Authored by: dolphy on Sep 11, '03 05:04:56PM

This is true. But "involved" understates it. The Nixon administration orchestrated the coup, destroying a democratically elected government in the only Latin American country with democratic traditions at that time, and a lot of people died in the process.

Sorry to bring politics into it, but it's there whether we like it or not. And avoiding it is also a political choice with political consequences.

I speak as someone who was in NYC on 9/11. I have very vivid memories of that day (& I was lucky not to be downtown, but relatives, friends & coworkers were not so lucky). I feel the same emotions as everyone else—but I don't think we should let that event crowd out our awareness of others. It's natural to think of one's own home, family, friends, neighborhood, etc. first, but I think that 9/11 taught us that we can't afford to ignore the rest of the world either.

I'm sorry if my comments upset anyone—they're not intended to.

---
dolphy



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Remembering September 11th...
Authored by: gedi on Sep 12, '03 12:07:07AM

Well said Dohpy. It shouldn't be offensive to people to realise that the lives of others are just as important.



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Remembering September 11th...
Authored by: ravedog on Sep 11, '03 01:18:17PM

Can we just remember that people died without diminishing it with speculation and articles about what may or may not have happened? bottom line people died - let's remember that. leave the socio-polital debate for another time and place.



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Remembering September 11th...
Authored by: vonleigh on Sep 11, '03 06:29:32PM

Today, tomorrow, the next day and so on, each one of these days over 20 thousand people will die of hunger or hunger related illness. These people have led painful lives and will die in a horrible way most of us couldn't imagine; can the same be said of the victims of september 11th?

I admire rob and his convictions, plus I completely agree with his right to hold a day of mourning on the site. However, I think we should give deeper thought to these issues: 3 thousand people from the US are not more important than 24 thousand from other parts of the world.



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Remembering September 11th...
Authored by: Ionas on Sep 11, '03 07:36:12PM

Incredibly well said. It would be doing all the dying & dead of the rest of the world a monstrous injustice to, in any way, assume that the 3000 victims of 9/11 are more significant than other victims of violence and ideological warfare around the world. I find the thought of a 9/11 memorial a bit misplaced, as there have been ample & plenty of opportunities for similar and even greater (and more terrible) grievances all around the world for the past 20 years. But I suppose distance is everything here, as this is the first time such a catastrophe has struck americans, in america...

As an european, however, I'm amazed at the number of crime experts, terrorism analysts and political commentators *in America* that belives the attack was planned and staged by the bush regime (just as I'm amazed by the number of americans that still think Saddam is connected to the world trade center thing). I can certainly buy some of their arguments as to what the government had to win from doing such a thing...



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Remembering September 11th...
Authored by: gedi on Sep 11, '03 08:11:34PM

If you remember only those who died in America then the statements are already political.

September 11 was a brutal tragedy, but no more so than much of what has been done in its aftermath.

I respect the sentiment of honouring the dead in New York, but I am horrified by the ritual forgetting of the thousands more who died, and continue to die, every day since in this bogus "war on terror".

A hijacked plane crashing into a New York tower is evil. A cluster bomb exploding in a Baghdad market is evil. Scattered fragments of depleted uranium in Afghan farms are evil. To denounce one of these, while ignoring or applauding the others is abhorrent.

I think one of the other posters on this forum is right, this is a computer forum, not a political one. It should stay that way.



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Remembering September 11th...
Authored by: foobar104 on Sep 11, '03 11:18:17PM

This is a textbook example of false equivalence.

Though this is hardly the place to debate such matters, I simply could not let this statement go unchallenged. To the person who made the statement: please think a bit more carefully about what you're saying before saying it. The error inherent in this statement is blindingly obvious after just a moment's reflection.



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Remembering September 11th...
Authored by: gedi on Sep 11, '03 11:57:45PM

what is the error?

how is the death of innocent Iraqi civilians in an illegal invasion any less abhorent than the death of innocent American civilians in a terrorist attack?



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Remembering September 11th...
Authored by: gedi on Sep 12, '03 12:04:01AM

actually I have something else to say to foobar104....

I find your statement about "false equivalence" deeply disturbing and offensive. Perhaps if politicians and patriots were able to see that human life in other countries is indeed equivalent to that in your own country then we might be on the path to some sort of justice for all.



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Remembering September 11th...
Authored by: foobar104 on Sep 12, '03 11:42:58AM

The error can be expressed in one word: context.

When a person dies, it's tragic and sad. Period. Regardless of the context. If you want to say that death is tragic and sad, no one will argue with you.

But when you start throwing around the word "evil," you get on shakier ground. In order to determine whether something is evil, you have to examine context.

On 9/11, some men deliberately and with overwhelming malice killed as many people as they could, with the specific intent that those people should be innocent men and women sitting at their desks in their offices. That was an evil act, any way you slice it.

It's difficult to examine your second example, because it never happened. Cluster bomb in a Baghdad market? I suspect you're probably alluding to some event or other here, but not accurately. I'm unaware of any cluster bombs exploding in any Baghdad markets. If, however, you want to take the example of the still-unidentified explosion in Shula on March 28, then that was either an accident on the part of the allies, or a deliberate act on the part of partisans or Iraqi soldiers. We don't know--and probably will never know--which. We have no evidence to support either theory. If it was part of a "frame-up" in an effort to create an new Amiriya and end the bombing campaign, then it was clearly evil. The deliberate targeting of noncombatants for the purpose of affecting a political or military goal is how the State Department defines terrorism, and that definition clearly fits here. If it was an accident on the part of the allies, however, then it can hardly be described as evil. Evil requires malice, and there was none. Tragic, yes. Should those responsible be disciplined? Absolutely. But evil? No. We can make this decision only after examining the context.

And as for the matter of DU, the great thing about DU is that it is depleted. It is not radioactive. Not at all. It is simply a heavy metal, no more toxic than lead or iron. Now, granted, lead and iron aren't healthy for you, but if you're going to leave debris lying around battlefields, DU is no different from any other choice. In fact, it's significantly better, because DU shells can be smaller, and we can use fewer of them, thereby producing less residue. It's a net benefit. It's not evil. In fact, it's just the opposite. In situations where artillery fire must be exchanged, to use fewer and smaller shells is virtuous.

Putting the victims of 9/11 on the same level as the victims of a (presumed) accident and non-victims is, as I said, a textbook example of false equivalence. It doesn't matter what nationality we're talking about; I would say exactly the same thing if we were talking about the al Qaeda bombings in Riyadh recently. What matters is context, and your refusal to be aware of it.

Now, for sake of civility, I'm going to assume that this false equivalence--incidentally demonstrated effectively elsewhere in this very forum--is simply an error on your part. But be aware that those who have an ulterior motive often rely on false equivalence to sway public opinion to advance their agenda. That's why responsible people must always call it when they see it, and thereby force those expressing their opinions to be honest in so doing. That way we can separate the naive from the insidious.



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Remembering September 11th...
Authored by: gedi on Sep 13, '03 09:29:51AM

So Foobar, you want to context? Try this context: the ongoing Iraq war started as an illegal invasion, predicated on lies. It had nothing to do with weapons of mass destruction. Nothing to do with terrorism. Nothing to do with protecting the human rights of Iraqis. It had everything to do with ideological hubris, shameless greed. Evil doesn't require the precondition of malice; depraved indifference will do the trick also.

Every death in this battle has been an act of evil.

We don't even need to start talking about Chile, Cambodia, Laos, etc etc etc etc....



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Remembering September 11th...
Authored by: wilton on Sep 14, '03 05:38:25AM

Depleted Uranium is harmless ???

From:
The extremely dense DU shells easily penetrate steel armor and burn on impact. The fire releases microscopic, radioactive and toxic dust particles of uranium oxide that travel with the wind and can be inhaled or ingested. They also spread contamination by seeping into the land and water.
In the human body, DU may cause harm to the internal organs due both to its chemical toxicity as a heavy metal and its release of radiation.
An otherwise useless by-product of the uranium-enrichment process, DU is attractive to military contractors because it is so cheap, often offered for free by the government.
According to the Uranium Medical Research Center, the toxic and radiological effects of uranium contamination may weaken the immune system. They may cause acute respiratory conditions like pneumonia, flu- like symptoms and severe coughs, renal or gastrointestinal illnesses.
Dr. Asaf Durakovic of UMRC explains that the initial symptoms will be mostly neurological, showing up as headaches, weakness, dizziness and muscle fatigue. The long-term effects are cancers and other radiation- related illnesses, such as chronic fatigue syndrome, joint and muscle pain, rashes, neurological and/or nerve damage, mood disturbances, infections, lung and kidney damage, vision problems, auto-immune deficiencies and severe skin conditions. It also causes increases in miscarriages, maternal mortality and genetic birth defects.
For years the government described Gulf War Syndrome as a post-traumatic stress disorder. It was labeled a psychological problem or simply dismissed as mysterious unrelated ailments. In this same way the Pentagon and the Veterans Administration treated the health problems of Vietnam vets suffering from Agent Orange poisoning.

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depleted uranium is radioactive.
Authored by: discordantus on Sep 15, '03 03:42:21AM

I'm not about to get involved in the more political arguments, but I feel it is necessary to correct a factual inaccuracy.
The "depleted" in "depleted uranium" refers not to the depletion of the radioactivity, but the depletion of all usable fissionable material. All it means is that there is nothing fuel-worthy left. It is still quite radioactive, and the radioactivity alone is enough to cause sever health problems, leaving alone heavy metal poisoning.
There's a reason why the Pentagon's scientists strongly recommend that any soldiers that goes near a site that has been targeted with depleted uranium weapons should wear hazardous materials gear. It is also suspected that many of the cases of "Gulf War Syndrome" are related to the fact that soldiers were never warned of the reports, and were ordered to search destroyed tanks and other sites that were contaminated by depleted uranium enhanced bullets and explosives.



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Remembering
Authored by: twa on Sep 11, '03 01:18:18PM

While It's perfectly clear to me that I'm a humble guest on Mr. Griffith's web site, let me speak my heart:

I come to this site in order to get hints on using my computer. Could we keep politics and sentimentality out of this? Something happens every single day that we should take a minute to remember, but we cannot stop going about our regular lives because of that.

Can't we move on? Weren't Sep 11 two years ago enough?

---

-twa-



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Remembering
Authored by: robg on Sep 11, '03 02:02:14PM

Once a year, I choose to mark an occasion that had great personal impact on my life. Last year, I did that with a banner on the page, but I posted hints as well. This year, I chose to take the day off from posting hints and reflect on my life since 9/11. Given that the readers would be expecting hints today, I put up the note to explain both my feelings and the reason for the lack of hints.

If it bothers you greatly, you can (since you're a registered user) simply disable the Site News topic (on your Display Preferences page), and you'll never see another non-hint when you visit.

You have my assurances that macosxhints.com will remain dedicated to its mission 364 days of the year. Every September 11th, however, I intend to mark the anniversary of the event in some manner, which may or may not impact the usual daily hints posting.

-rob.



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Remembering
Authored by: vzv55p on Sep 11, '03 02:31:30PM

You have more diplomatic tact than I think I would have been able to muster in response. Bravo.



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Remembering
Authored by: grinnelljosh on Sep 11, '03 07:31:40PM

Rob, thanks for delegating this day in remembrance of the innocent people who died.

9/11 means so much to Americans, because it was so unexpected. Sure, people die frequently because of car crashes, cancer, heart disease along with other illnesses and accidents—but these usual causes for death aren't wrought by malice. The victims of 9/11 died because people valued their own goals above human life should always be appauling to Americans.

As Americans we need take time to not just remember those who died, but work towards a more equitable world where anger doesn't turn to killing people. Let's learn about how our government has made this a more violent world before and after the attacks, and elect representatives who vote from a moral center and a true concern for American lives, not corporate sponsors.

(The CIA warned the White House that a war on Iraq would increase the risk of terrorism in America as was reported by mainstream press in October, well before President Bush declared war. Also, we gave Saddam Iraq weapons in the first place, hoping he would sell us cheap oil.)

Tomorrow let's return to OS X and speak only about the death of OS 9.



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Remembering
Authored by: Ionas on Sep 11, '03 07:44:21PM

Wow, man, I'm impressed. Such clear distinctions between sadness for those who died and keeping a clear head about your own government [I'm actually not being sarcastic, although I appreciate it might seem that way ;-)].



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Remembering September 11th...
Authored by: mustang_dvs on Sep 11, '03 03:53:10PM

I wish people could put aside pettiness and politicism for a single day, to remember that this day is not about foreign policy, or war, or even religion, but more than 3,000 innocent lives that were snuffed out in a horrific moment of inhumanity.

Visit the September 11th Digital Archive, a joint project of the Smithsonian Institution and the National Archives.

My story - September 11, 2001 through my eyes

Dan Smith
Pentagon City - Arlington, Virginia

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Remembering September 11th...
Authored by: gedi on Sep 12, '03 12:12:25AM

Dan, I'm sorry but the pettiness *is* only remembering those 3000. As terrible a tragedy as it was, as disgraceful and evil and barbaric as it truly was, it is injustice to mourn only for those first victims while ignoring the thousands of other lives that have been so triumphantly sacrificed in the name of "freedom" since then.



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A Day of grief
Authored by: Ezekiel on Sep 11, '03 04:02:59PM

Also for us swedes.

As you might have heard on the news, our foreign affairs minister was stabbed yesterday while shopping and died of the wounds this morning.

It seems alot of bad stuff happens on this day, perhaps even more so than on some other days.



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A Day of grief
Authored by: Ionas on Sep 11, '03 08:31:46PM

She was actually stabbed yesterday afternoon. What could possibly attributed to today is Swedish medicinal science not quite being up to the high standards we've set for ourselves...

I don't mean to *censored* about your wording, I just don't think 11th september needs more dramatical weight that it has already. Now, if the euro vote had been lost to the yey-sayers today, THAT would be reason to suspect the gods for placing a curse upon 11th september...



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A ray of hope
Authored by: GerryA on Sep 11, '03 05:08:23PM

I share Rob's pessimism about the future. But in a world which is fragmenting before our eyes, there is a ray of hope that I cling on to. It is manifest in the hundreds and thousands (or more) people who, independently of politics, race, or religion, have chosen to become a part of the community that chooses to live a life through pages such as these, either by contributing to them, or reading them. Let's take a moment not only to look back and reflect on the events of the past, and the significance they have had in changing our world, but to look forward, and reflect on the things that *are* good, and the ways in which we, as individuals, can collectively be a force for good. End of speech. And thank you Rob for being a part of this community, and enabling us to share it.



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More American victims
Authored by: thinkyhead on Sep 11, '03 05:45:51PM

In the two years since 9/11 over 90,000 Americans have been killed in transportation-related accidents in the United States. Many times more than that have been permanently maimed.

There is therefore a far greater chance that we and our children will be maimed or killed simply as a result of living the American lifestyle than due to terrorist acts.

Something to consider on this solemn day.

---
|
| slur was here
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More American victims
Authored by: foobar104 on Sep 11, '03 05:52:26PM

I've heard this sort of sentiment expressed countless times today, in different contexts, and I can't seem to figure out why. What reason do you have to point this out on this day and in this place? Is it to say that we shouldn't be afraid of terrorist acts? I agree. Is it to say that cars kill people? That's beside the point. Is it to say that 9/11 wasn't significant? That's monstrously insensitive.

I guess what I'm saying is, I don't know whether to agree with you, ignore you, or be angry at you. Which means, at best, that you've failed to communicate effectively whatever message you were bearing.



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A bigger picture?
Authored by: thinkyhead on Sep 12, '03 05:09:32PM

I'm not sure there is a point. It is an interesting statistic, that's all. I don't personally conclude anything from it. If it has you not knowing what to conclude then I guess it's effect is the same on you as it is on me.

45,000 preventable accidental deaths per year don't make a big splash because they have no malicious agent behind them. For most there is no political meaning to be found. Yet they occur.

I believe these lost lives fit into the bigger picture.

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| slur was here
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Yet more American victims
Authored by: thinkyhead on Sep 18, '03 07:20:47PM

Forgot to mention there have been over 22,000 Americans shot and killed by other Americans since 9-11. That's 3 to 4 9-11's per year.

Again, where's the public panic? Where's the moral indignation? What portion of the Homeland Security department will be addressing this problem, which is clearly more serious than the terrorism issue?

We can send a man to the Moon, kill 4 million Asians with ease, overthrow Democracies all over the world, hand the media over to powerful interests without breaking a sweat. Surely this problem is a piece of cake....

---
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| slur was here
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While Remembering September 11th...
Authored by: zephc on Sep 11, '03 06:28:48PM

Some things to remember to do today:
- buy lots of flags to fly from your SUV
- place one or more "These Colors Never Run" bumper stickers on said SUV, which was proudly Made in America.
- buy more gasoline
- wear a red, white and blue shirt all day long.
- always, always obey what Bush says, verbatim.
- "Support Our Troops" because you know they love being there, away from their families, in nice, hot desert weather.
- Pay your taxes
- Conform
- "Don't Mess With Texas", especially if you're mentally retarded.
- Tow the party line.
- Buy a CD from starving artists like 50 Cent, Christina Aguilera, and Ja Rule.
- Smile for the cameras located around Your Town, USA



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While Remembering September 11th...
Authored by: amrc0308 on Sep 11, '03 07:25:35PM

does anyone else agree that our biggest weakness is the fact we cant get along? Some pay tribute in an open forum, and others hate it. WTF is with us? Im sure the terrorists see that, and use it against us. When someone close dies tragically you remember the day every year forever. We need to unite and show 100% solidarity 100% of the time instead of 100% solidarity <50% of the time

Thx
R-
My heart for NYC, WA, PA, and all victims of terror.
God BLess US



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While Remembering September 11th...
Authored by: foobar104 on Sep 11, '03 08:21:08PM

We can't get along? Don't be absurd. How many Americans do you see blowing up pizza parlors? Our ability to get along is way, way above average.

We could do with fewer arrogant snotballs, of course...



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While Remembering September 11th...
Authored by: Ionas on Sep 11, '03 08:26:06PM

It's a little vague to say that a people, or at least, as in the case of americans, groups of people inhabiting the same geographic area, can be better or worse at getting along. I would find it safer to draw conclusions like that on a individual to individual basis. Your government is another thing. Currently, they are not very good at getting along with the world at all, hence the massive world-wide political oppostion towards the bush regime.



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While Remembering September 11th...
Authored by: vman on Sep 11, '03 08:56:43PM
hey........it's 12 september now!!
[G4:~] vman% date
Fri Sep 12 02:35:59 CEST 2003

phew..

As a european I'm distantly mournful over the wtc-losses, but the more baffled over the Bush administration, and the whole hypocrisy behind the 'war on terror'-thing. Glad to see the overall considered & intelligent nature of opinions expressed in this thread.

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While Remembering September 11th...
Authored by: amrc0308 on Sep 12, '03 12:15:14AM

Well, so far Ive seen the following:

Pizza delivery people being blown up
Many school shootings
A 14 year old girl near my apartment who killed her 8 year old sister because the TV was too loud
A kid who liked the "grunge look" was beaten to death because of it.
Twice in two weeks people were shot just for fun in my city.
A fight after a car accident
Our own soldiers killing fellow soldiers because they dont want to be there( i agree with them there, but better ways to display that)
No more Commandments anywhere in public
Politicians trying to force their own views upon the country.
The bickering in Congress shortly after 9-11
Suits allowed against Boeing, United, AA, and the NYPA because of 9/11 (<~~BULL)
The posts in this forum
Where else in the world do you see arguments over gay preists/marriges?
It is my firm belief the terrorists are attempting to exploit our
inability to converge, in an attempt to make our country fall from within, and then move in. Much like wolves stalk cow herds looking for the weakest. Which is why I said we need to be united 100% of the time.
Yessir, only here in America can we see the aforementioned



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While Remembering September 11th...
Authored by: gedi on Sep 12, '03 12:21:29AM

Foorbar104, do you really think Americans have a better ability to get along than other people?

Who blew up the federal building in Oklahoma? Which country has (by far) the highest imprisonment rate in the world? Which country has used force to topple democratically elected governments in other countries? Which country illegally carpet-bombed Cambodia and Laos? Which country has *insane* murder rates? Which country sought to criple the United Nations and lie to the international community to justify its illegal and politically motivated invasion of Iraq?

I could go on for hours. Wake up. Open your eyes.



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While Remembering September 11th...
Authored by: grinnelljosh on Sep 11, '03 09:22:00PM

First, disagreement is healthy.

Second, there is no merit to the idea that terrorist are paying attention to internal debates. Unfortunately, too many people use egotistism to drive their thoughts regarding America's foreign policy. Yes, both people and nations have to look out for their own interests, but you have to wonder whose interests are truly being considered? Are Americans lives more important than Iraqis, considering the recent death tolls? (See iraqbodycount.net)



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While Remembering September 11th...
Authored by: grinnelljosh on Sep 11, '03 09:29:05PM

Well put.

Please remember to get all of your news from corporate owned media conglomerates or, even better, directly from the White House



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Remembering September 11th...
Authored by: mhollis on Sep 11, '03 08:28:57PM

This is a difficult day for me, as I visit and call the relatives of those ten that I knew personally who died. We're all moving on as best we can and I appreciate the owner of this site for offering his rememberance.

Here is my political viewpoint, for whatever it is worth:
Forming communities like this one and others on the Internet tends to join us together as a rule, especially as we all help each other out with the issues and problems of making our Macintoshes work better for us. When we do this, we don't pay too much attention to each other, we pay attention to how we can help. This is a good way to honor those who passed away on September 11th, before then and since then, because we are working towards doing things in an altruistic manner and celebrating the community that works in this way.

As I look from my street in Greenwich Village at the towers of light, which represent to me the souls of those now gone, I would like to think they're smiling at how wonderful these communities bring people together. And for that, i am very thankful. We can do better as human beings than we tend to do and this place proves it.



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Give the next guy some credit.
Authored by: macmath on Sep 11, '03 09:26:08PM

Just because person X has a valid point does not mean that person Y's different point is not also valid. In addition, people are not one-dimensional: just because person X states belief A does not mean that they do not also hold your belief B.

Arrogance is assuming that oneself or one's point-of-view is more important than someone else's. Tolerance comes from giving the next guy credit for being as valuable as yourself. Deriding someone for stating a belief and issuing your own 'superior' belief just puts everyone else on the defensive when you probably all really agree on most points.

For the world to exist in peace without hunger or killing, *everyone* has to think first of someone else (and act on behalf of someone else) before thinking of themselves. [Car accidents are still going to happen, but if fewer people felt that their need to get somewhere fast is more important that the next person's need to get somewhere fast, then fewer car accidents would happen as well.] Requiring that this consideration just exist between countries is not enough...it has to exist between people whenever they cross each other's paths, including on this board.

Live and let live, everyone.

By the way, I do not believe that the above stated belief is more important than anyone else's belief. In addition, by conceding the previous sentence, I do not feel that I am any better than anybody else.



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Give the next guy some credit.
Authored by: mrpresident47 on Sep 11, '03 11:07:23PM

I'm not sure that you believe anything beyond the fact that disagreement scares you.



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Give the next guy some credit.
Authored by: macmath on Sep 11, '03 11:18:54PM

I believe they all had a point, although some did not represent their point well.

I'm not sure there was any disagreement above. Just statements followed by other statements. No one wrote back and said "That's not a valid point". Everyone seemed to just write in and say "You missed this point." I did not see anything get resolved either, just a bunch of ruffled feathers.

Why read something and get all worked up that the other person is missing the whole point when the other person never said they were putting forth the whole point. Energy can surely be spent much better than this.



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Remembering September 11th...
Authored by: yubbie2 on Sep 12, '03 01:29:06AM

To Robg: Kudos for having the honor and integrity to place life and a day of rememberance over materialistic things. Anybody who can't live without a new computer hint for just one day while they remember those who aren't with us anymore have their priorities severely askew.

To those complaining: Don't like what Rob said/did? Fine. Either go get your own website and post your own view, or use the day to remember someone in *your* life that you've lost. Let each person have their voice though. No doubt the world would not be in the pitiful state it's in if everyone were able to speak their own voice. It's actually quite scary how many humans DON'T have this Freedom of Speech that so many of us hold so dear.

To all: Let's hope all of our children can grow up in a better world.



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Remembering September 11th...
Authored by: rkchang on Sep 12, '03 01:51:32AM

I can respect Rob's decision to pause a day and reflect. Every man has his way of coping with Sept 11, and no one way is more correct than another.

Here are my thoughts and experience on the matter: I was working in the Washington DC area at the National Institute of Health (NIH; yes a national agency). I had been at work about 10 minutes before a co-worker announced the attack on the Twin Towers. When we finally got a TV antenna wired up, we were confused by images of a damaged Pentagon. Shortly afterward, governmentally owned offices (including mine) were closed for the day. What was usually a 5 minute drive home turned out to be about half an hour. Both my land line and cell phone were virtually unusable, as all avenues of communication were tied up. When I got home, I was bombarded by images of the Twin Towers on the TV, that I felt I had to turn off the TV and move on and do something constructive. Since the NIH Hospital was within walking distance, I walked myself over and donated a pint of blood.

Since then, my feelings have been the same. The best way to make it out of this tragedy, is to move on. If we let everybody stop us, then the terrorists have won. I do want to stress, however, that this just my PERSONAL strategy. As a psychologist-in-training, I realize that everybody has their own equally valid ways of coping. While I'd wish that Rob would continue to post hints for today as a sign of moving on, I respect his decision and see it as a perfectly valid and good way of showing respect. Since this site is primarily run by him, he definitely has the power and right to use this forum as such.

On a side note (and in an attempt to spark some debate), I sort of feel that the damage to the Washington DC area has been marginalized in comparison to that of NYC. Emergency crews were just as busy at the Pentagon as they were in NYC. The DC economy and atmosphere has been hit probably as much as that of NYC. While we should still remember those who lost their lives at the Twin Towers, let us not also forget those who lost their lives at the Pentagon, nor those in that Pennsylvania field.


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"I have seen the evils of procrastination, and I vow to change my ways tomorrow."



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Remembering September 11th...
Authored by: octavius on Sep 12, '03 02:47:20AM

Yeah, I share the rememberance too. But I dissagree with what Rob said about it being completely meaningless. I mean, don't get me wrong here.. I'm against what happened but I do believe the people who risked their life for what they believe in isn't meaningless to them. It's a sad topic and I hate the fact the anyone has to die. The only hard part to swallow is that nobody remembers how many Koreans or Okinawans died by American troops (both greater numbers than Sept 11). But since it's not "Americans dying" nobody cares.. too bad.



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Remembering September 11th...
Authored by: logo on Sep 12, '03 02:59:08AM
Robg:
well done. I absolutely agree with on the point of our childrens future (my daughter was just 6 months on that day).
Sep 11th had a big impact on my life (though not personally involved and hurt) and I support that you make note of it on your site.

I don't understand all the complaints and most of the comments on this article. I would never connect any discussion on the political consequences of 9/11, the hungry people in this world, Nixon and Chile, the people dieing in traffic accidents to the remembrance of the people who died in the planes, the Pentagon and the WTC.

Just a thought.

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Remembering September 11th...
Authored by: JayBee on Sep 12, '03 05:20:50AM

Well said, Rob.

Beautifully diplomatic - I can tell a lot of thought went into that post, and I appreciate it.

I think the way the discussion has proceeded from your careful and tactful statements somewhat sums up your closing worries about our future.

11/9 is as important to Americans as 11/11 is to Brits, as 14/7 is to the French, as 6/8 is to the Japanese, as 16/4 is to the Scots, as 13/2 is to Iraqis.

The problem with using these specific dates outwith personal remembrance (and I appreciate that Rob is using this day as <b>personal</b> remembrance) is that they are rooted in conflict. For the Iraqis, it is a day to remember those killed by Allied bombs; for Scots, it is a day to remember those killed by the English; for the Japanese those killed by the Americans; for the French those killed by their aristocracy; for the Brits those killed by the Axis, and for the Americans those killed by the nebulous (and dangerously so) Terrorists.

We then extend those days to cover all compatriots killed by external forces. I feel that those reminding us of (for example) the number of Americans killed <i>by Americans</i> have a valid point in that we should be working towards a day and a time when all loss of life is treated as equally tragic. Whether someone was killed in a head-on car crash, or was bombed in a civillian bomb shelter, they lost their lives and will leave loved ones behind who have to cope with that.

While the media (and again, I have to stress that I am <i>excluding</i> Rob from this criticism - Rob, I applaud what you're doing and the way you're doing it) remains focussed on using and manipulating dates for jingoistic fervour, we've all missed the point, and we're all just contributing to the causes of those who see us as distateful and hypocritical. "Terror" is not a country with a unified ideology. It is slowly being manipulated to point at any country whose ideology is at odds with the US and Britain.

One of the beautiful lessons of all the dates mentioned above is that, in many cases, the previous "enemies" have become reconciled. The Scots no longer war with the English (and vice versa), the Allies no longer war with the Axis etc.

When you are dealing with a unified political ideology, you can see an end to conflict where the two groups can live in peace. Ironically, peace through resolution should be the purpose of any war in the long run.

The problem with the "War on Terror" is that there is <i>no way</i> that it can end peacefully. Terrorism cannot be eradicated, as it is a (tragically) natural extension of human frustration when politics fails.

We cannot "make peace" with Terrorism, and we similarly cannot "destroy" Terrorism. How, then, can we ever conclude this war?

The only way is by giving Terrorists nothing to criticise, no hypocrisies to rally followers around, no atrocities to cite as our arrogance, no brutalities to cite as our injustice, no rope to us with.

Our current courses of action (and I say "our" as a Brit) are doing nothing toward this end, and as such I share Rob's fear for our future.

Thankfully, the debate here reassures me that, finally, we are all thinking politically again. If nothing else, 11/9 should be remembered as the day we in the "west" all remembered the human element of politics, and all started thinking and questioning again.

I believe that every day should be a day of reflection, that reflection should be apolitical (I mourn the loss of the souls flying the planes too - whether you believe they were lost before they boarded the plane or not, they were not born terrorists).

Ironically, our governments seem to be hell bent on making every day a day of mourning, but I don't want to see that realisation happen by having each day of the year commemorate a different atrocity done in my name, in the name of "freedom and justice for all".

Sorry if this rambled. Just had to get it off my chest.

Well done Rob. And thanks - you're an inspiration in this site, and reassure me that we <i>will</i> be all right.

Too many people open their mouths without thinking (and I can often be one of those). Thanks for thinking.



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Remembering September 11th...
Authored by: JayBee on Sep 12, '03 05:23:07AM

dammit, sorry about the HTML.

Forgot to switch it on, and forgot you can't edit when it goes up!



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Very well said...
Authored by: jiclark on Sep 12, '03 11:32:08PM
...despite forgetting to turn on HTML formatting. ;-} I find debates like this facinating. I'm amazed that anyone thinks that any of these posts were actually criticizing Rob! We're all just trying to process difficult and complex feelings. I didn't read criticism in any of the above posts, just differing opinions on what is the "meaning" of 9/11, and where we are headed today as a result of those events. JayBee, you've elucidated exactly what I've felt since I first heard the phrase "war on terrorism". It can't be won, except by removing any and all personal freedoms! [Unfortunately, that's what it appears Atty. Gen'l. Ashcroft is doing his best to accomplish.] And (almost) everything our governments are doing abroad is actually fomentingmore terrorism, not doing anything to end it!! That's why it's not hard to understand where all these amazing conspiracy theories are coming from. "Power corrupts, and absolute power..." The saddest part is that so few people can see the fallacy behind the concept of waging a "war on terrorism". It's the emperor's new clothes, all over again... Peace everyone, PEACE.

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Remembering September 10th...
Authored by: GaelicWizard on Sep 12, '03 05:15:38PM
Remember September 10th!

The day before you gave a f*ck.

---
Pell

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Bowling for Columbine
Authored by: lipids on Sep 12, '03 06:06:54PM

If you have not already seen it, I suggest you go rent it today.



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Remembering September 11th...
Authored by: bilalb on Aug 10, '04 09:40:01AM

If I admit that I felt relief to hear after the bombing of Baghdad that my own relatives were unharmed, will anyone accuse me of tribalism? After all, it simply meant *other* people had died, who after all are worth no less.

But to be more affected by the pain of those we can relate to is simply human. So give the man - Rob - a break.

Sure, it's debatable whether extending the 'family privilege' to nations doesn't breed evil. There is a case and there are forums for discussing it, but *that's* the issue that's out of place on a software forum, *not* Rob's public remembrance on his own website of a focal day that affected him personally.

So to all the politically like-minded who saw red: think for a moment about whether *you* succeed at feeling universal love and brotherhood for all people all the time.

A suggestion to Rob, if I may: my guess is that some react allergically to the use of the logo more than to what you said, because it might be associated with pseudo-patriotic, with-us-or-against-us in-your-face institutionalization of the event. Maybe without it more people would be willing to listen.

Peace.



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